Episode Transcript
[00:00:21] Speaker A: Hey, this is Lacey with Smartcast, and I'm joined today with a friend of mine, James Carter, who is a retired lieutenant from the city of Pelham police officers. And he and I met at Church of the Highlands. We were both on serve team. He, of course, was the police that was there, and I was doing kids check in team. But years later, we are still friends. And now that he's retired, it didn't take long for him to want to jump back in and start helping people. So he has started an active shooter program that he is facilitating. And so he is at our office today, today doing a training with most of our staff. And we're so excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: So we've already completed our online portion of the training module, which was super easy. It's through a program called Avert. And we completed that. And then we're going to do the hands on portion with you this afternoon.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: So tell me a little bit about the program. What drew you into this and some of the benefits that we can hope to be able to gain from this program for our staff to feel more confident in the event of some sort of, you know, mass casualty or anything like that. Whether we're in a public place or here or whatever, we just feel more prepared to handle that.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Well, it started about 1015 years ago. I guess us, as the department, got real active with our actorship approaches. And then as we progressed and started training, looking for buildings and different places to do the training, a lot of those entities were looking at us, hey, look, we need to be more prepared as employees, church worshippers. So how can you help us? And so we started trying to provide as much as we could. And then back in 2023, I officially retired after 29 years in law enforcement. So with me wanting to still serve and be a part of helping people, I was able to actually, another company looked at me for the training. The actors should be part of it, but they had already looked at another entity that I didn't know about, and that was avert. And so in the process of working with them, I went through avert, got their certification.
Still the. Still the same concepts as everybody's heard. There's a lot of entities out there for active shooter training and avert. I really like the program. I think the program is beneficial in several ways because it gives you an online component so that you get a baseline of what to expect in the in person presentation. And part of that, just the in person presentation, I think, is the engagement because it really focuses on hands on approach to not only the part of helping, not only defend yourself, protect yourself, providing the protecting the room, but it's also about the aspect of, okay, you've survived the shooter, and unfortunately they've been taken out, neutralized, or the act of threat's been neutralized, stopped, and now what have you got behind you? And that's where the problem comes in, is we focus so much on stopping the threat that we forget about what's happened before that. And by that is the idea is once we stop the killing, we gotta stop the dying. And unfortunately, a lot of our active shooter events in the past, and it's been documented several times, is that it's been the nature of way law enforcement, fire department's work is getting that connection and that complex coordination together to get the injured to help. And a lot of times it is severe bleeding is the major problem. And so I think what is unique about avert is that it adds that component to the training. And by that is, we will discuss not only the idea of understanding what a severe bleed is, you will be able to identify what a severe bleed is and be able to not only understand how to apply direct pressure, which most people is pretty simple, but until you get your hands on it and be able to see what you're doing, it makes it more easier to identify.
Then we'll show you how to pack a wound. And by that is, I try to go into detail as much as I can about what to expect in that issue.
And then lastly, is tourniquet application is seeing what, once you put on a tourniquet, how you can save a life. And I think tourniquet application has been unique in the realm of the military going overseas. And a lot of the knowledge base they learned over there, they've brought back. And it was brought back during, right after the Boston bombing and Sandy Hook. A lot of those incidents were looked at and realized that a lot of the injured, if we could just got to them and stop the bleeding, the deaths of the casualties wouldn't have been as great. So if everybody remembers back to the Boston bombing, they can see a lot of the improvised tourniquets that were used to help with the severe bleeds, because they were all leg wounds or lower body extremity wounds. And so the concepts of understanding how to place a tourniquet, how to apply direct pressure, is so unique. I think spreading the word, getting as many people as can to understand it.
It didn't have to be a mass casualty or an active shooter. Event to understand that those practices or those.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah, they're practical in so many different conditions.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Just everyday home, you know, practices of, unfortunately, we as men like to get in our garages and work and, you know, the idea of working with a chainsaw and how a chainsaw can slip or work with a circular saw, how that can slip, working with a lawnmower, you know, working with the blades, any of that could be easily fall into the realm of a severe bleed.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's applicable in a lot of different areas. But I think too, another important part of this training is that I can definitely see how if there were some sort of event that you would just kind of in shock, just be still and not know what to do. But if you've had the training and you know exactly what steps to take, then you can be proactive in making sure that you can save lives and you can save your own life and that you have a plan in place to know exactly what you need to do to get through the situation and not just shut down.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: You're empowering yourself to be able to take action and help yourself and others.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Amanda Ripley wrote a book, and it deals with that aspect. And it's the understanding, you know, going through the denial is, is this what's happening? And then there's a whole aspect of, you know, moving from that to understanding that I've got to move. And then finally, decisive action of, okay, I gotta go and I gotta hide, or I've got to. Prepared to defend myself. And she does a really unique job of trying to push that. And it's actually grown to where I think FEMA and Department of Homeland Security actually knew that as part of their training. And so it's very unique. There's a lot of concepts out there that you'd be surprised. The person that you think is always there, always has the right answers, always prepared in that time of situation where there's mass casualty or chaos, how they will fail to freeze out.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: So that's where the aspect of the training, I think, will really help people is, because one, it transforms you hopefully, into that person that will take some type of action. Now, it doesn't mean that you have to go and stop the attacker, but I think you.
Exactly. It gives you confidence to know that I can do something and I can act if needed. And so I like to hit on that aspect is, do you have a duty to act? And that duty to act is one, is either, is it just you calling 911 and getting help? Or is it you barricading that door. Lastly, just getting out of the location, separating yourself from that disaster that's going on. And lastly, if the duty to act is, after all the chaos, you've had a little bit of training, you understand what a severe bleed is, is becoming that immediate responder. And I tell a lot of people that is a lot of times, yes, until we can get medical, you know, personnel in there, you will be the one that starts saving lives and you building, having confidence that you can put on a tourniquet and in 30 seconds stump up an arm that's severely damaged or amputated and you're stopping the blood flow out of it to save somebody's life. I think it's huge.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: I think that a lot of people have the mentality that if they're not a trained nurse or doctor or something like that, that they are intimidated to jump in and help in different events or whatever. But I think that with trainings like this, it can make you feel a little bit more competent in your skillset to be able to jump in and help, especially if there's not, you know, a trained medical provider in the area to be able to help instead of just sitting back and not doing anything, you feel like you have the tools and the power to be able to go in and do what you need to do to help.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: What's crazy is one of the trainings I went through when I was with the police department, one of my instructors, he presented a story where he had actually had an accidental weapon discharge, and it ended up severing artery in his leg. And he had been teaching severe bleeding control for years, a number of years. And it really touched me because I hadn't done the same thing. And the thing was, he hadn't taught his family, he hadn't taught his wife, he hadn't taught any of his kids how to apply a tourniquet because in.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: His mind, he felt like he was the protector.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: But what happens when the protector needs to be protected, I guess.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: Exactly. And so that night I went home and my son was, I think, ten at the time, and we learned how to put on tourniquets. Now, my wife didn't like.
That's a little bit of the aspect, but she got it and she understood it. And my son ate it up. And to this day, he still talks about it. He constantly is wanting to know more about it. So I think, especially in the age that kids are growing up now, empowering them, too, especially the ones that are coming out of high school and going.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Into, not me going home tonight, teaching all my kids.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: I think it's a really good aspect is to think about is the way our world is right now, desensitizing them to understanding that unfortunately, they can be a part of that. And how they can help a friend if needed, I think is huge.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: There's threats on schools every day.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: And it's just a matter of time of when it is something that actually comes to pass. And so having the kids especially know how to do that, I think is really important. Do you guys do programs within school systems, too, not just for the teachers but for the students as well?
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Yep. We have done that in the past and available to do that anytime too as well. I think there's definitely programs out there for the schools, and I think that encouraging that to be done. I understand the curriculum and time constraints are very tough on teachers, but being able to try to figure out how to do that, I think it's going to be great.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Seems like it should be a part of maybe their health class program or something like that. Just be at least a section with them.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: I think they're doing a little bit more, but the more we can push it, the more we can get that grasp of children to do that. I think it's great. We actually done it one time with an ambassador group at the Pelham High School. And watching the students grasp it and grab hold onto it, understanding what it meant to stop that bleed was very impactful.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: I know that mom and I were talking to my stepdad yesterday, and he was telling us that they used to do this program every single year at Alabama power. It wasn't, I don't know that it was necessarily this specific program, but they did active shooter training every year with Alabama power.
Did he say if they were doing like stopping bleeding and all that stuff, too, or was it just active shooter? I think it was just active shooter. Did he ever talk to you about what he learned or did he just keep all that to himself?
[00:13:34] Speaker B: And more likely, it's, you know, there's number of programs. There is run, hide, fight. There's alice, there's several others that are out there that is constantly being used. So I'm just very fortunate to, you know, I've gone over the run hide, fight program that's provided through department homeland Security. And so it's being taken that and learning what I have from Evert.
It's great to understand different ideologies about it and seeing how everything can work together.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: Now, are there different levels of this training course or is it just kind of like one course. And then how often should they do it? Or are there different, like, levels to it? Like, what's the growth in it?
[00:14:18] Speaker B: You know, there's a lot of thoughts in it is, you know, at least once a year when you're doing your annual HR training is to make sure that you're going back over some concept of it. Others say every two years is fine. I've also heard, you know, every five years. But my, my thought on it is it's all about the muscle memory. The more you do it, the more you're going to be having the mindset that if something happens, you're going to hear that, that different aspect of something. You're going to understand where you work at. You're going to stand where you are at all the time. You're going to understand what it's like to be at the church. You're going to hear all the noises that are accustomed to those locations. And if that noise of a gunfire or that noise of a scream or a large, you know, bang that goes off, you're gonna immediately understand something's not right. And starting to act on that is what's very important.
The longer you delay in making that decisive action is, is detrimental to you surviving.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about what we can expect to do today.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Okay. The way the program sets up is that is very interactive. And we will start off.
There's several videos that go along with the training, and the creators of the program will present you with some ideas, thoughts. We'll then discuss those thoughts, go in a little bit more detail. And then most of all, the videos have some type of hands on approach where it's either you're putting on a tourniquet or you're packing a semi wound, so. Or lastly, you know, eventually that each one of you will hopefully look at me and be me as the offender or the attacker and try to stop the threat. And I don't want to spoil the. The end of it, but that's the, that's the gist of it, is, is that I will be a threat, and I'll give you the opportunity to see what you can do to stop.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: My opportunity to take you down.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: You know, I don't want to say that because I know many of you and you may get a little too involved. Exactly. So.
But it's like I said, it's a great program. I've had some really good feedback from it so far. And the company ever gotten to work with it. They've had me come to not only their Birmingham office, but their office in North Carolina and looking at pushing that out to their remote colleagues in Denver. So for me, it was a large company that has really, they grasped hold of it and enjoyed a lot of it.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Now, have you had anything where you've learned from anything and kind of, like, pivoted or changed any of the, the in person trainings from the beginning to now?
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Well, I don't say I want to change it or changed any of it, but I will say that there's some components of it that, you know, for my prior training, I'm, you know, I'm a certified instructor with the department, Homeland Security and FEMA, and I've had a lot of large amount of training through it, through what's called FLETC, which is the federal law Enforcement training center. So I try to say that I take a component of all those and add them into not only what I learned in the past, but take avert to. So it's, and I've got the opportunity to work with UAB and a special aspect that UAB presents. I've got to work with some special operations divisions from the military where their medics and some surgical teams have provided some great and valuable training that I will never be able to pay back.
So the goal is to take all that knowledge and give back as much as possible.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah, the crazy thing is that just when you think you've got things under control and you know how you're going to handle a situation, there's like some kind of new terrorist attack against us or something, like you just really never know what's coming and what you need to be prepared for that. You have no idea. And unfortunately, what is even, like, a possibility.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Exactly. And what's crazy about when you start looking at the gamut of things, it's, you know, it's not so much all gunfire. It's an active threat. And so those threats have come from so many different avenues. I mean, we've had people that, you know, take, for instance, Ohio state. They had an attacker that came out swinging with a knife, you know, and he started out by ramming his vehicle into a certain area. So we've had several vehicle attacks where, you know, just going through crowds with the vehicle. So it's all about constantly being aware. And that we will talk about that a lot is the situational awareness. That is one unique aspect about the program, and I think that's constant across the board with active shooter training or active threat training is the situational awareness is where I'm at. What am I doing? Where's my safe zones? Where can I go? And I like to. There's one story it's out of, I believe it's Illinois that came out from 2022. It was a 4 July parade, and there was a knack to shooter event, and there was a gentleman there with his family. And if the story's correct is that he threw his kids into a dumpster because that was the closest thing to him. So, you know, having to be able to share those stories and be able to tell those stories, and people would go, man, I didn't think about the dumpster. I didn't think about this. And I think we've talked about the dumpster right down behind your building.
Is that a safe zone? Absolutely. You know, I would highly look at that and we'll talk about, you know, there's a lot of active shooter events that have happened at malls and Walmarts. And the.
There was one at a grocery store in New York a couple years ago that the gentleman just pulled up in front of the.
I can't say gentlemen. The attacker pulled up in front of the grocery store and just started shooting. So it's just constantly being aware of where you're at and what you're doing.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: You know, exit strategy.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: It was funny because I was talking to a friend of ours, Andy, that was at church, and he was doing, he was kind of on the team that helped with all of that, too. And I was telling him that you're coming in to do this. And he was like, well, all your treatment rooms have locks on them, so that's good. And then there's the dumpsters right there. So he was like saying a lot of the things that you had already. And I was like, yes, he already came in and did that. He knows these things.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Things.
It's great that you know that the words are getting out there and that many, a lot of people are taking what's being said and what's being taught and using it and preparing with it. So I was happy. I'd done a class for a homeschool program here last year, I think it was. And some of the things I talked to them about and kind of prepare for them and mentioned to them that we talked about prior to kind of setting up themselves for hopefully success. The first thing I noticed was they had implemented one of those. And so it was kind of neat to see that and see that. Okay. Yes.
People are listening. People are understanding that, you know, it's. There is a need to try to protect yourself.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I just think that you can't ever be over prepared for anything.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: So I think that I am really excited about the opportunity to have this training available for our staff. We did CPR certification for our staff several months ago, and then now we have this. And I just think that it's so good that we have these programs now that we can make available for our team so that they can feel prepared no matter what.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: Well, and I think, too, is just. It's part of the whole, unfortunately, you know, we have the concept of workplace violence, and, you know, OSHA covers that in many different ways. And there's a lot of things, unfortunately, that you have to think about when you're in the workplace and it's fostering that good workplace environment. And a lot of times where those, there's many workplaces that haven't had that, and it's unfortunately resulted in, you know, someone not liking what's going on and taking it to another extreme.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it can make the difference between life or death.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: You know, I mean, and again, like we've talked about, it doesn't even have to be something that happens here at work. It could be something when you're out in public somewhere else or at a child's, you know, football game or baseball game or.
And if it were here, like, sometimes with the way that our parking is in front of the building and those windows right there, I can't tell you how many times I have, like, visions of a car just crashing through the window and, like, what would we do? And how would we scatter? Like, you know, my brain just kind of, like, is always like, what do we do?
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Well, the thing is, and that's great that you're thinking about those, because that's, that's. That is where we start, is constantly evaluating what we're doing and how we're doing it, where we're at. And it's just like my son, I had cell phones. You know, kids are getting more and more cell phones now, and as we all know, kids want to stick their noses and eyes right in the phone. And when he got his, you know, he. He was big enough when we'd go to stores and stuff that he didn't want to walk around with mom and dad. He thought he was a little bit too cool for that and he'd want to go watch his little shows. Well, for me, it was. It was, okay, well, let's just test this. And like I said, he was probably, you know, 1213 the time, and for him to understand that to know where he was at, know where his exits are, and understand that, you know, he can't get fixated on that phone after losing that phone several times of just, you know, where's your exits at and him not being able to understand that and know where they're at, he quickly grasped the concept. And so, you know, unfortunately, our kids are growing up in a different time, and we have to instill the knowledge in them.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, and that's one thing that I will say that my mom has, like, beat into my children's heads is to be able to watch their surroundings and not walking in between the cars. Whenever you're walking out to the parking lot, parking where there's, you know, it's very well lit, watching the people that are walking around you and make sure no one's following you, knowing, you know, exactly what's going on at all times. And they are really good about that, too. I think mainly because she's just drilled it in their head from the time that they could hear her speak.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: That's awesome. You know, that's because that's one of the things I wouldn't say. Preach on. But I tried to strive to emphasize is when you're pulling into that parking lot, don't just pull straight into a park space. Take a minute, ride the parking lot, you know, and then when you pull in that park space, sit there for a minute.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: See what's going on. Listen, and then before you. When you get out, stand there for a minute. As soon as you get out, you know, make sure what's going on then before you close that door.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Lots of dangerous things happen in parking lots.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. So.
But, yeah, that's, that's kind of where I'm happy with that. We're, we're moving forward with this and that. I think the, all your employees are going to thoroughly enjoy it.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So is there any type of training and programs like these for, like, in the event that there's a.
All of our cell phones go down and there's no way to communicate with anybody, like, what is your plan then?
[00:26:41] Speaker B: That's prep. Planning beforehand. I think we had that issue here not just about a couple months ago.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: At and t and t. So good luck.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Exactly. And, you know, that goes back to kind of preparing, you know, letting your kids know where you're going to go to, you know, having that. Having that safe spot, having two or three safe spots to go to, constantly preparing them to them and you to, so that everybody's on the same page.
I know, that the same thing is we've always talked about, you know, tornado preparedness, you know, in that center room, have, have, have that room prepared, you know, and by that is having some way to stop bleeding, you know, have plenty of flashlights, have the helmets. Because I've been helping out with a public safety course at Thompson High School, and it's been unique trying to tell the kids, hey, look, this is what we're, this is what you need to prepare for to assist public safety. And my kids go there. Yep. So it's, it's been unique watching over the last two weeks them grow a little bit to where they're starting to engage and understand what's the idea and how vital it is for public safety. They need help. And it's not all about the police and it's all about the fire. It's about everybody. This is the whole community that makes public safety better.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: Well, good. Well, I'm so excited. Thank you so much for being here and sharing what you do on our podcast. I'm excited for you that you're able to have kind of like another second thing after retiring from the police department. Has this has been like a little passion project for you?
[00:28:26] Speaker B: It has. I kind of wanted, that was my goal. And on the backside that, you know, I am instructing and doing some other stuff and, you know, having this avenue to still give back is, that's me. That's the way I was raised. That's where I was. You know, I grew up, was always, you know, trying to serve, and so in some form or fashion. And so for me to be able to continue to do this is a blessing.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: Well, me knowing you as long as I have, I can definitely attest to that to be true.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: So thank you very much.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much. And I look forward to our training. And thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of Smartcast, and we'll see you next week.
